Carter Alan with Bono & Edge
Verona, Italy July 3rd, 1993
One might have read about this interview in Bill Flanagan's U2 at the End of the World, an account which is essentially correct. It took place at the band's rural hotel in an old stone grotto, which rendered the recording unusable with its hollow, distorted echoes and background noise from a nearby highway. After a power failure in the hotel stopped the tape machine, I failed to notice that the deck auto-rewound when power was restored and the initial part of the interview (a wonderful discourse about Brian Eno) was recorded over and lost. At 1:30 AM after the second and final show in Verona's Soccer Stadium, I was dead-tired, jet-lagged and in the opening throes of food poisoning (the next day spent in bed). Edge is half-asleep, but Bono is wide awake and good to go!Despite everything going against it and the fact that it is never used by Westwood One because of poor sound quality, the interview reads very well with much information about the then-forthcoming Zooropa album and the ongoing tour of Europe. The passage from this interview used in Flanagan's book has been rendered in bold type.Carter : We were talking about improvising and having a time limit on this new album [Zooropa]. A couple of times in the past when you had a time limit and you were improvising, trying to finish, you had some of your less successful results - the October album, maybe Unforgettable Fire. But this time it seems it worked out fine, from what I'm hearing. Bono : Well it depends on what you want, you see. It's funny, some people just don't like it when it's in focus. Some people prefer it when it's out of focus. Some people prefer Unforgettable Fire to The Joshua Tree. People right now are just kind of fed up with things being too right. It's like the surface - people are suspicious of shiny surfaces you know, billboard kind of art. Look at the ads on TV even them, they're screwing them up. It's nice when things are open-ended, it's nice when things are a bit raw. I don't want to dis those albums - October and Unforgettable Fire. To me they're like, without being too fuckin' pretentious about it, they're impressions. Impressionists were painters, they didn't spell out every thing in detail, they didn't say 'here is a tree, here's the leaves.' [Instead it's] 'this kind of looks like a tree, this feels like a tree.' Maybe it's even more interesting than a photograph of a tree. That's kind of where we're at when we're improvising. It's not a license to be self-indulgent, but momentum is a player. Ask yourself, why do I like Bob Dylan's early records, why do I like the early Rolling Stones? [It's because] They didn't have time to think about [recording] them. When you get too much time to think, it can sometimes work, but it sometimes doesn't. Carter : So, was Zooropa, like The Joshua Tree, an album where the four of you sat down and worked things out, or Bono : No! Edge : Not a chance! We just went in the studio Bono : You know, Johnny Cash was in town. We had this song that we were working on and it wasn't working out. We got this new melody but I couldn't sing it, so we wrote lyrics because Johnny Cash was in town. He was a hero of ours, somebody that we were in awe of . So, we said, let's take him down. This will be the revenge of Rattle and Hum! We'll put Johnny Cash on the moon. Carter : You listen to "Zooropa," which is this expansive vista, very futuristic, and you put that against Johnny Cash. It's almost like a David Lynch soundtrack. Bono : Right. Well, he's the antidote to "Zooropa." You're quite right, he is the other side of that song he's the end of it. It's the same song, really it's just about going out there, and Johnny Cash has been out there! (laughs) That's why we dig him. That guy is hard, he's as hard he's as tough-minded, he's as tender, he's as wise, he's as surreal as you would hope. Carter : I wanted to thank you for putting together my favorite band with my dad's. (laughs) Now you're supposed to say that you didn't know my dad liked U2 ! So, it was like that? He was in Dublin? Bono : Sure, he was in Dublin. We wrote Carter : Did he know of U2? Bono : Oh, yeah, we had met him. Listen, Johnny Cash we were following him around for years. He's a bad ass. He's the real McCoy. He's it! We're all just little fucking apprentices. You know, myself and Adam, at the end of [the] Joshua Tree [tour], we drove across America, just rootin' through the rubble. We got to Nashville and we met up with this guy named Cowboy Jack. He brought us to Johnny Cash's house and Johnny Cash was really cool about it. He looked after us really well, even took me to a zoo. You know [that] Johnny Cash has a zoo? Carter : No ! Bono : Sure, he does! He's got all kinds of animals in this zoo. He's driving [us] around in this zoo and he tells us about this emu. Do you know what an emu is? It's like a big ostrich. He says, "Well, I had this emu here but I had to get rid of him because he tried to kill me. (laughs) Apparently, Johnny Cash was neatly beaten to death by an emu! He defended himself and he got through it, but I just think what a way to go! (laughs) He's a very cool guy and he knows where he's at. We used him like have you seen the Wim Wenders movie "Wings of Desire?" Carter : No Bono : It's a great movie. Columbo turns up in that movie - Peter Falk! He's a special guest, but he appears as Columbo , in character. Well that's kind of the way Johnny Cash turns up on Zooropa. He is "The Wanderer" and he's kind of in character. Carter : Where did Zooropa begin? What song ? Edge : "The Wanderer" actually. Edge : It's ironic because it's the first song [recorded] and the last on the album. In a weird way it set some of the sonic and musical parameters because there's no guitar in it. I was working with keyboards at the time. Bono : Johnny Cash beaten to death by an emu that's incredible. Can you imagine the headline? (we all laugh) Carter : You do get a yahoo in at the end [of "The Wanderer"] there. Bono : Yeah, I'm in there. It's really great - there's a group named Suicide. There one of the most important bands ever, very seminal. Carter : Ric Ocasek produced them. Bono : Right. Edge got this thing going on the keyboards which, for me, recalled Suicide. And, you know Alan Vega [of Suicide] has this kind of rockabilly voice. Johnny Cash has that rockabilly thing in him [too], so it kind of worked. It sounds like the Holiday Inn band from hell, but it works I think. But, a lot of the other stuff [on Zooropa] just came out of improvisation. Edge : Some of it was also taken from show improvisations and ideas that were started either in hotel rooms or in soundchecks from the road. In fact, "Zooropa," the track, part of that was recorded somewhere in the United States on a particular afternoon before the show, I don't even know where. We took some of those ideas and just started to edit them together and play around with them. That's how that piece started to take shape. Carter : The radio sound effects at the beginning of "Zooropa" seem to draw a connection between Achtung Baby and this album. Was that intentional ? Bono : No. We were just into this place and we didn't want it to be anything to do with the past. Edge : Yeah. Carter : Which, I think, is something that's been on your mind with every album. You always wanted to do something different. Bono : Well, I just hope if you're out there and you're into U2 these people have come down some strange roads with us in the past. We went to Memphis! (laughs) It's a ride it's part of the ride. That's our part of the deal. Our part of the deal is not repeat ourselves, not to do that horrible regurgitation Edge : It boils down to finding a palate of sounds that are trustworthy and I think we were finding that some of the more usual sounds had kind of we had run out of faith in them. We were trying to find other sounds that we could utilize in our music that evoke a certain feeling or place. Some of those sounds are not musical sounds, they are taken from TV or radio and they produce a certain effect and bring you to a certain place. So, the opening to "Zooropa," where you get this babble of shortwave radio signals, it evokes a certain feeling and place Bono : It's a trip, it's like legal drugs. This drug culture is really big at the moment and I think I know why. [Its] because reality is so mundane and rock and roll is mundane it's so retro! So, we were trying to create a trip of some kind so when you put on this record you go to another place. I don't know what Zooropa is, I haven't a clue. But, I know it's a ride and I know that you come out of the other end and you feel like you've been on some kind of a journey. Why the hell are people buying records anymore? I don't know. They're so boring! The reason you buy a record is that you want to get to a place. You put on an album, you go somewhere else. Otherwise, listen to the radio. These albums [that are out there], they're just collections of songs so what! That's not what we were coming from. We wanted to create a place that you just get to. I guess that is a kind of a trippy thing, but in a positive sense. [At least] you're not paying out a fortune for some chemical to take you there - this is music we're talking about. Carter : You're talking about sounds. In "Daddy's Gonna Pay For Your Crashed Car" it seems as if the sounds created the song. Bono : Yeah, that's interesting because that's a combination of two traditions. See, that's a blues. In very basic form, that's a blues. Robert Johnson, that's what that [song] is. "Daddy's Gonna Pay For Your Crashed Car," it's a song about dependence, the things that you need and the things that reek. It can be read any way - it could be the Devil, it could be God. But, it came out of a sound, you're right about that. I think it was a sample from 900Foot Jesus or Edge : It started as a rhythm and a really strong mood and got built up from there. But, again, for us in the studio now when we play together and we're sounding normal we don't get anywhere. Often [to progress], we need to start from an unusual point of view before we can actually feel that we're moving in an area that we're interested and inspired in. Ultimately, it's getting more and more difficult to find, within the primary colors of rock and roll, new things to say and Bono : New ways of saying them. Edge : saying them. You hear a wound up guitar chord or a snare drum with reverb or reverb on the vocal, it just seems like you've heard it so many times that it's lost its power to really effect you and connect. A lot of the process of making this record was trying to reinvent, almost, the sounds of a rock and roll band. To find new sounds for the drums, new sounds for guitars and new vocal sounds. We were experimenting with distortion Bono : and reverb on " Crashed Car." A lot of the reverb comes in and comes out. We roll on, roll it off so that it gives you this intimacy, [then] this distance, right up against each other. I think the cool thing about that is as abstract as it is, it is a blues. It's like John Lee Hooker, you know it's (sings in a blues chant while pounding the table in time) "You're a precious stone," thu-thump, thu-thump, "yeah, you're out on your own," thu-thump, thu-thump, "You know everyone in the world," thu-thump, thu-thump, "but you feel alone," thu-thump, thu-thump, "Daddy won't let you weep," thu-thump, thu-thump, "Daddy won't let you ache," thu-thump, thu-thump, "Daddy gives you as much as you can take." That where that [song] is coming from. But, it's set in this kind of sci-fi Carter : That's John Lee Hooker on the moon! Bono : (laughs) That's what's interesting about that, it's kind of a juxtaposition. But, if we played that, as Edge was saying, if we played that in a traditional way you'd say, "Yeah I've heard that before." People are jaded, they're bored they're probably even bored aren't interested in us talking about the record! Carter : Well, I think it's most interesting that you needed to do something [different] or you would be bored. Bono : You just got to keep yourself interested, that's the thing... Edge : Our attention span is probably quite limited Carter : Which is good. Edge : I guess it is good, but it does make it difficult in the sense that if it's really not completely fascinating, we're gonna nod off! Bono : It's a horrible place to be Edge plays something on the guitar and people say, (whines) "aaawwwhhhhh, don't that sounds like U2!" Well, hold on a second, we are fuckin' U2! (laughs) It's mad! But we got into the idea of just taking U2 and dismantling it. It was like shooting U2 in the head. The whole principle of "Zoo TV" [was] whatever we wouldn't do, let's do it. Because, we believed in the spirit of the band and it wasn't about a sound, it wasn't about a kind of idealism that people tried to pin us down with. It's a spirit, music's a spirit. You know, we had the Velvet Underground on tour with us, and when they play together, something happens! As they say in New Orleans: 'some other kind of shit.' You can't explain that, it's just what happens when four people with the right chemistry get together. That's what happens with U2 - it's a spirit. It's got nothing to do with the fact that Edge plays chords that nobody else plays or Adam likes to play 4/4 or play off the 1. I don't know. These are technical things, they don't mean anything. It's the spirit of the band that means anything. It's magic, it's voodoo hope it's not voodoo, actually! Carter : What about the way you (Bono) use your falsetto [on the new album]? It's something which came out of nowhere a few years back Bono : The fat lady voice! Carter : which you've refined quite well. Bono : Well, the 'fat lady' sang on "The Fly." That was a gospel thing, it was kind of kitsch, you know, big fat mama. We just thought on this record [that] we'd give her a song! (laughs) I love to sing like that. Carter : "Lemon" would be the best example of how you use the falsetto, the 'fat lady' voice, on the new record. Bono : Yeah. "Lemon" is a song from two completely different traditions - a European tradition and an almost "Disco Duck" Studio 54 kind of tradition. It was influenced a lot by Fellini, who's an Italian filmmaker we were into. It's a juxtaposition that seems to work. I don't know, you got to be playful. Mystery and mischief - that's where rock and roll is at. It has to have both of those ingredients. There's a bit of mischief in the 'fat lady' voice. Carter : In "Lemon," does Brian Eno sing in the chorus? Bono : It's Brian and Edge. Carter : It reminds me so much of the Talking Heads. Bono : Some people would say, "that reminds me of Bowie, that reminds me of Talking Heads." Brian has a very strong personality and he is on those records. That's the way it is, his vocals I wish he'd make more singing records. I really like his singing style and I think he and Edge sing really well together. I guess he did sing on those Talking Heads records. (sings) "Letting the days go by " Carter : Yeah. "Once in a Lifetime." Bono : Yeah, all that stuff. Carter : What about "Numb." It was left over from Achtung Baby!? Edge : Well, it wasn't left over, it was a piece of music that we'd worked up before that record but never finalized a melody or a vocal approach for. I had this numb title for a long time but never really brought it to any conclusion and then we dug out the music when we were working on this record. [We] just goofed around on it for awhile and came up with some different approaches and that's the one that really seemed to connect. Bono : It's Edge playing the rhyming thesaurus like a conga player, that's what I think. Edge : It was a lot of fun, actually. It didn't take very long once we got the idea. I just sat down and wrote out about eight sheets of possible lyrics, then went in and put it together pretty much just verse by verse until I got some kind of shape to it. The mix was the easiest thing in the world, you just put up the faders and just let it go. Carter : The [" Numb"] video seems like it was almost more fun to do than the song. Edge : Again, it came in a very similar fashion to the lyric and the song idea because it started with a sort of brainstorming session and we came up the rough outline for it. We literally called Kevin Godley the next day and said, "Look, this is what we want to do. Here's the idea. Can you come to Berlin tomorrow and we'll shoot it? We've got a studio, we've got eight hours, let's do it." Kevin came in and the two of us sat down for a few hours and worked on a kind of series of events and it just started to take shape. We didn't have an ending for it and then Paul McGuinness, our manager, arrived and he became the (laughs) ending. Carter : The only person you acknowledged Bono : The thing that he's whispering into Edge's ear is a very heavy thing. He's saying, "There's somebody I'd like you to meet." That puts the fear of God into any member of this band 'cause you just never know who he wants you to meet. Carter : Yeah, but I wonder how many takes how could you [Edge] get through it without cracking up? Edge : I think we only did three takes. Carter : Really? Edge : Yeah, because the time we spent was in piecing it together so that it had a flow. For instance, one of the feet belongs to Morleigh the belly dancer, and the hands belong to Andrea who owns the other foot. So people had to run around the back and there was a lot of organization Carter : Enough about the feet, who are the tongues? Edge : (pauses) I'm not telling! (everyone laughs) Bono : I preferred the feet. Edge : Yeah, the feet are very happening! It was all I could do to resist the temptation to bite one of the toes. That was my real problem. Carter : At this point, you haven't worked any of the new songs into the live show. Bono : I'm trying to do it at soundchecks. Pearl Jam are playing with us at the moment, Emotional Fish, and we want to give them soundchecks. So, if we give them soundchecks we won't have any chance to get them [the new songs] in the show. So, it's like we've got a lot of balls in the air at the moment. You know, we're going to get a few new songs in there. Carter : I wanted to ask you about this incident in Germany where you cut the Irish flag up. I noticed you're getting slagged off in the Irish press. Obviously it was a bit of symbolism, [but] how would you respond to that? Bono : (reluctantly) I don't want to defend it, particularly. It was a moment and I just went with it. I've just sort of had it The Irish flag itself is an attempt to bring together a few different traditions. The gold, which is of Ulster in the north of Ireland; the green, which is of the south and the white, which is to be some sort of compromise. But the truth of it is, there's a lot of despicable acts have been done with this Irish flag in mind. I don't like flags Carter : It could have been any flag? Bono : I don't like any of them. I'm sick and tired of the idea of flags. Europe, at the moment, is just completely disintegrating over this issue. We had some people from Sarejevo they came they got out of Sarejevo, they took the boat, they came across to Italy to see this rock and roll show, to see "Zoo TV." He's from Sarejevo TV and he was telling me that in the middle of the war, you know, in the former Yugoslavia, they go down three nights of the week into this shelter under the ground and listen to rock and roll. They've got this big dance floor, they dance and they listen to rock and roll. Why? Because they're into rock and roll and when rock and roll is playing they don't hear the shells exploding above them. Their nerves are shot, they're fucked up and they're into rock and roll like a lifeline. It was very humbling for us to have them at the show. We gave them a video 'bootleg' of the show to take back and put on Sarejevo TV, which he said he would do as soon as the electricity returned! Yeah, there's another instance of flags. What is it? What do people have with flags? It's like football teams - it's great if it's a game, but if you really believe in this shit, you're fucked up! We need each other and we're not very different. Human beings are very similar. The flag I'm not trying to defend it [my action], but somebody just threw it and I don't know why, I just cut it up and kept the white bit. I'm not defending it; I recognize that a lot of people believe in that flag, some people gave their lives up for that flag. I'm not trying to be flip, I'm not trying to be controversial; it just happened. I probably won't do it again. But you never know Carter : Well, you invoke a response and hit a nerve when you use those powerful symbols. Bono : They are symbols Carter : One of the most powerful moments for me during "Zoo TV" is during "Bullet the Blue Sky" when the cross becomes a swatiska [on the video walls behind the band]. Bono : The burning crosses, which are the symbol of the Klu Klux Klan and racism, turn into swastikas and then I use a line [from an Auschwitz survivor], "We must never let this happen again." We did it in Germany, in Berlin. Carter : What was that like? Bono : It was interesting to be in the stadium that Hitler built and [then] to take this energy that he used and turn it on its head. We use Leni Riefensthal film as well. Leni Riefensthal was one of his propagandists and we take images that she took of the Hitler Youth and we use them against themselves. Carter : Was that the picture that opened the show, of the boy hitting the drum? Bono : Yeah. Fear is the enemy and you mustn't be afraid of these people. The 'right' is on the rise all over Europe, in America, everywhere! Those [Neo] Nazi murders [are happening] all over Europe right now. The people that the Nazis feared the most were the Dadaists, the Berlin Dadaists who mocked them, took the piss out of them, lampooned them. Humor is a very powerful weapon against these people because they're so macho, they're so hard. If you poke fun at them, they just can't take it. So, we followed the route of the Berlin Dadaists and [in] our show we mock the devil. Carter : You certainly mock the devil when you become MacPhisto. [Unfortunately,] the American audience won't get a chance to see him.. Edge : He's sort of the same character we used in the States, the "Mirror Ball Man," the tele-evangelist, secondhand car salesman. He's just been taken to its conclusion, which is MacPhisto, the devil. Carter : He also seems to be some sort of aging actor. Bono : He's the last, he's a sad, bad pop star. He's taking "The Fly" character, a kind of rock jerk, to its ultimate conclusion. It's like him playing Vegas thirty years later. I get to camp it up a bit, I get to say things I could never say myself. I get to ring the Pope! I get to ring Helmut Kohl Swiss bankers to ask them about Nazi gold they have stored in their banks. He's a mischievous character and I'm enjoying it! But, he's still in development. Carter : Now, do you worry that people won't get it that people might believe that U2 is selling out to this, that the Mirror Ball Man or MacPhisto is what U2 has become? Edge : But it is what we've become. (everyone laughs) Bono : Yeah, it's cabaret. Edge : It's a character. I suppose in the context of the show, of course there's a possibility that people won't understand it, but I think it would be very weird for them to make the mental jump that Bono thinks he is the devil! (more laughs) That would be outrageous. Carter : What's it like playing in Dublin after a World Tour? Is there extra pressure because you feel you have even more to prove to all your mates? Edge : Very big guest list, that's for sure. (laughs) It's a lot of mixed emotions playing Dublin because, in some ways it is like playing to your family and Bono : They're never gonna like you. Edge : yeah, they're never going to 'get it' either. There's a combination of deep affection and pride in the success that we've achieved in Dublin mixed with a begrudgery and you know, a lot of people are dying to watch us fail. So, all those things kind of implode and rain down on the Dublin shows. That can make them either the best shows of the tour or the worst! Bono : That's a very good analysis. There's nothing quite like it for me. Playing Dublin, I love it. It's like the Big Fight. You want to be match fit because these people will give you everything they've got, but they'll [also] take everything you've got. Dublin's an extraordinary place, it's tough-minded, people are tough there. They don't care about success or money. It just doesn't matter to them because it was always associated with the English, with compromise. So, people respect your artistic integrity Carter : They would respect hard work, which you've done. Bono : Yeah, they respect hard work, if it's great. But they're hard, they're hard asses. We will have to work hard! This will be the last show (Dublin Aug. 1993) for I don't know? I don't know when U2 will play again. We may play Australia, we may play in Japan, we haven't decided just yet. So, it could be the last show for a long time. Carter : Can you actually go home after the show, or does everybody just follow you ! Edge : (laughs) It is a strange one because being in your hometown you don't go to the hotel. Hotels are what does make sense when you're on the road; your house doesn't because there's no room service. Towels that you left on the floor in the morning are still there at night! (everyone laughs) This time I think I'm going to check into a hotel after the show! (laughs) Bono : I think so too! It's an extraordinary city. It's like it's in code. For visitors when they come, you have to be able to crack the code. It's not like Paris where it's all there, you come and you see it. [Dublin] is all in side roads and back streets, late night drinking. It's a very interesting town and I love living there. Carter : When you think about your life and accomplishments, does it amaze you? I mean, you're [actually] living your dreams. You must stop yourself every once in a while and say, "Damn, I just met who would become the President of the United States," or Bono : Yeah we're getting there, we're getting there. See, we're not well. We have an ailment. We're sick people Carter : (laughs) Edge is looking at you like you're [crazy] Bono : we're trying to make this rock and roll record that we've got in our heads. The rest is great and all of that, but it's not really where we're at. This music thing - we're still trying to get it right. Listen, I had a lot of fun when I didn't have any dough and I'm having a lot of fun with it. That just doesn't matter. See, that's where society gets you to fuck up your life. They tell you if you got money everything's going to be okay, yunno, work your ass off! That's not where we're coming from. That fame thing, it's mostly just a pain in the ass. What's wonderful is to walk out on the stage and to have fifty, sixty thousand people set themselves on fire for your music. That's what it feels like some nights, it just this bonfire of feelings and emotions. That's what really turns my head.